SUCCESS! A fix for Scooba 5800 "Service Code One"

jemartin · Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 5 Location: Massachusetts USA

Attn: RoombaExchange.com

After two years of approx. 2-4 successful cleaning cycles per month on a linoleum floor, our apparent Model 5800 Scooba failed last week with "Service Code One". Following the simple user manual directions did not resolve the problem. This machine has always been promptly cleaned thoroughly after each use by three-five rinses of the dirty tank (DT).
A new battery was obtained from iRobot in May, following iRobot directions. As revealed below, a bad battery is not the issue.

Telcom with iRobot support for this out-of-warranty device was a rather disgusting experience. As reported elsewhere in this forum, iRobot's business model is to completely abandon/orphan their customers after the warranty period, at least the common middle class variety. Perhaps they learned this from their Pentagon contacts/co-conspirators, where only taxpayer monies are involved. This lack of response reminds me of my many past experiences with Hewlett Packard computer support!

Several days of website viewing, esp. RoombaReview.com, and many hours of contemplation led me to using a powerful air stream from an auto repair air compressor on the tank and body. The curved exit nozzle was 6 inches long, and a somewhat longer, flexible one might be more effective. To my great surprise, and despite my many previous rinsings of the DT, the air stream forced approx. two ounces, by volume, of dirty, sticky hair, coated with soapy residue, probably soap-coagulated mineral salts, dirt, etc. Subsequent rinsings resulted in the machine once again operating successfully, three times so far, over two days, for full cleaning cycles. Today it performed as well as it did two years ago.

IMHO, iRobot has simply failed in designing a DT which can be successfully cleaned. The complex inner structure results in solid residue being deposited, which is not easily removed by simple rinsing. I find this most odd, since the front of the DT has a small transparent, retangular window glued to the DT body which could be an entry point permitting better cleaning using scrapers, brushes, etc. I may use a Dremel tool to create such an opening, which can be later sealed with gaskets and secured by stainless steel screws.

More damning, IMO, is iRobots failure to support their expensive product and to abandon their customers, many of whom wish to remain loyal robot owners, but are being defrauded. I doubt many middle class American buyers expect a $300-500 tool to fail after two years or to be unsupported and/or unrepairable. Nothing on the iRobot website suggests that this may be the user's experience. This is not full disclosure to the consumer.

Of course, other users may have different results. However, a vigorous burst of air directed at a now-useless machine just might be successful.

I look forward to other user's comments. Ciao. END

arnard · Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 40

I don't know. People pay $20,000 for a vehicle with a 3year warranty and do not expect the manufacturer to tell them how to fix it or even care that it broke.

Fraggboy · Posted: June 20, 2008, 8:22 am Post subject:

Jack, Welcome to RoombaReview!! :D

I have always emptied out my tanks and always hot flush everything, including the cavities on the underside of the tank which leads to the DT. I have an aquarium flexable brush that I snake through them to clear any debris.

Arnard does have a valid point tho about warranties.. After the warranty has expired, they won't honor it period.. And, while you are IN the warranty, they will try to weasel their way OUT of it and blame the consumer so they don't have to file a warranty claim..

Anyways, I'm glad that you have fixed your Scooba.. If you own a Roomba, make sure to check out the forums and get the tips from the members here to have your Roomba last much longer after the warranty has expired!

Gordon

jemartin wrote: ... the DT has a small ... window ...which could be an entry point permitting better cleaning using scrapers, brushes, etc. I may use a Dremel tool to create such an opening, ... Doc, while I agree with your entire rant, I thought I ought to suggest that you keep your Dremel holstered in this quest to create a clean-out port.

I've attached a couple cut-away views of the Tank (camera at rear, and looking toward the Tank Handle) for the purpose of showing the volume you may access through the removed-window portal. IMO, you would not be able to reach the areas that get clogged! I think clogging occurs above the lower chamber, in the airway ducting (hidden behind the upper, blue colored structure.

Long hairs might hang up on the flapper-valve, but can't say for certain.
--------------
FYI readers: These pix were made possible by glo69, who donated the subject Tank to 'science'.

vic7767 · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 3287 Location: Louisiana

Nice Pics Gordon. What did you use to slice the tank ?

Gordon · Posted: June 20, 2008, 4:43 pm Post subject:

vic7767 wrote: ... What did you use to slice the tank ? Band-saw.

jemartin · Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 5 Location: Massachusetts USA

This a great example of the kind of productive response for which I hoped!

Fraggboy: Thank you for the welcome. How exactly do you use your aquarium brush? In view of Gordons' pictures, how do you think the brush is working?

Gordon: Thank you very much. I only have the one iRobot product, so nothing on which to experiment (yet). How do you think Fraggboy's brush can be most productively used?
How can the air nozzle be used most effectively?
Where would you suggest creating an entry point in the DT for cleaning, if such is feasible?

I suspect cleaning the entry port leading to the suction fan in the main body and its exit ports is very important, also.

Does anyone have any additional ideas for cleaning the dirty tank?

Ciao,

Gordon · Posted: June 21, 2008, 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Jack follows up:

jemartin wrote: ... Gordon: How do you think Fraggboy's brush can be most productively used? I am not at all familiar with the aquarium brush that Chris uses, but I think its main purpose is to function as a 'roto-rooter' through each of three conduits that carry air and airborne contents to the trap-door above the main DT chamber. Looking at this marked-up photo:

...I am referring to inlet ports noted as (10), 2PL and (9). Internal ducting from the (10) ports undergo tight 90º turns, twice, on their way to that drop point, so that aquarium brush's shaft must be very flexible.
I think Chris will explain, when he uses that brush, it passes clear through the ductwork and the lead-end pokes out the exit-port, (8). Quote: How can the air nozzle be used most effectively? Blow into each of (8) through (10). Do the same with the force of flowing water.

Don't restrict your cleanout methods to those two, however. I believe the job can adequately be done by simply using hot water (not hotter than you would like to touch continuously) to do the above port-flushing, then partially fill the tank, close its stopper, and vigorously shake the Tank in all directions. Repeat until dump water runs clear. It is a wet process, since the noted inlet & exit-ports will be sloshing some water all over the work area! Quote: Where would you suggest creating an entry point in the DT for cleaning, if such is feasible? I do not see that as being feasible. It is the air-flow path that needs thorough cleaning, not the reservoir below. When Scooba cannot 'breath' it gathers no liquid. Quote: I suspect cleaning the entry port leading to the suction fan in the main body and its exit ports is very important, also... I presume you are referring to the largest port, (8). Obviously, it must be clear, but, that happens automatically by doing the above (flushing, shaking, dumping) process.

Jeff Carver · Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 113 Location: Massachusetts

I'm unclear on where the compressed air was directed that cleared the scooba tank in this case. A jet of air blasted into the filler opening? Or into the ducts on the underside?

On the question of iRobot's abandoning of out-of-warranty products, I think jemartin's complaint is valid. (My personal experience with iRobot has been far better; in the past, they've actually replaced out-of-warranty Roombas for me, something they obviously can't continue to do forever.) The difference between this and auto manufacturers is that the auto companies have chains of local dealerships that will repair your car regardless of age; plus, there are many independent shops that do the same. In the case of iRobot, they don't offer the service at all. We have one independent shop that I know of, roombaexchange.com, and a lot of people (us) exchanging tips on fixing the machines ourselves.

As a roomba/scooba lover, and penny-ante shareholder of iRobot stock, I really wish the company would work harder at maintaining customer satisfaction.

jemartin · Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 5 Location: Massachusetts USA

Gordon: Thank you for a still more very informative and useful photo and descriptions of how the tank works. I better understand the process now.
I suspect I have been unclear about the "fan" and its location. This fan is the suction fan in the main body, not in the tank or reservoir. It is just after the screen covering the port labeled 8 in your latest photo. Elsewhere on the web, I have recently seen photos of this fan by a user who disassembled the main body and cut into the housing of this fan. He advised that little to nothing could be obtained by this extensive surgery. This fan vents through a small and a large port just to the front of the left wheel of the main body (viewed from above). The filter screen traps debris before it reaches this fan.
You have been very helpful in this matter and I look forward to your upcoming book on all matters of Roomba and Scooba. Where do I send my advance deposit?

Jeff Carver: I directed the air into several ports, but the apparent useful one was into the main opening of the dirty tank. The largest amount of debris exited port 8 in Gordon's recent photo. My machine has continued to perform well after this unexpected successful cleaning.

Re: iRobot's business model: If the product was similar to a Gillette disposable razor, we would not be having this conversation. However, I suspect few, if any, American households expect only one year of support for a $300-500 product. I can and have, sent computer parts to California and southeast Asia for repair. UPS, FedEx, and DHL can get them anywhere in 3-7 days usually. A reasonable fee for repair after the warranty expires is to be expected. Currently, the owner is orphaned. If it is too expensive for iRobot to repair their products after one year, then the consumer should be prominently warned prior to purchase. Full disclosure is the minimal requirement. I suspect few Americans would buy one if they knew what the future holds. Reasonable people might disagree.

Thank you all for your useful help. Without this website, I would be clueless about my problem. END

Fraggboy · Posted: June 23, 2008, 4:38 am Post subject:

I use the flexible aquarium brush entering in port # 9 and exits port # 8. I use hot water for the other thin ports where the brush doesn't fit (Port # 10).

jemartin · Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 5 Location: Massachusetts USA

I have obtained three brushes which work well on the Scooba:

Aquarium Guys
#214998 and 196860

Fisher Scientific
36 inch buret brush #03-615

All are quite inexpensive and well made.

My machine with a new battery now requires recharging IMMEDIATELY prior to use. Otherwise, it fails soon after starting.

Jeff Carver · Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 113 Location: Massachusetts

jemartin wrote:
My machine with a new battery now requires recharging IMMEDIATELY prior to use. Otherwise, it fails soon after starting.

That's pretty much the case with mine, too. If I take it off the charger because it's been a while between uses, I always put it back on the charger the night before I expect to need it again.

bob_ninja · Joined: 17 Apr 2006 Posts: 174

Jeff Carver wrote: jemartin wrote:
My machine with a new battery now requires recharging IMMEDIATELY prior to use. Otherwise, it fails soon after starting.

That's pretty much the case with mine, too. If I take it off the charger because it's been a while between uses, I always put it back on the charger the night before I expect to need it again.

Scooba seems to use even more power than sweepers. Due to high load on batteries they tend to develop high SD sooner. Therefore they can loose substantial amount of energy in just a few days when not on charger. This is just a sign of a tired battery.

bob_ninja · Joined: 17 Apr 2006 Posts: 174

I had a similar issue. My older 5800 would simply light up the "Check Tank" indicator when I placed a full tank (full battery of course). I tried to trick it and it would start, but would run only 2-3 min and then check tank lights up and it stops afte drying cycle. So I was guessing that there are some deposits some place. I am not as disciplined and don't clean brushes and tank throughly each time. Sometimes I rinse the tank well and other times I don't have the time. They mostly wash kitchen which gets the most traffic and food/drinks dropping on the floor.

After reading this I decided to try my standard cleaning procedure on the tank - air compressor. This one provides about 90 psi which is plenty. I wrote before how I consider air compressors to be the most important maintenance tool for robots. However, I haven't tried it on Scoobas yet besides the screen and the tube.

I use this simple nozzle to pump air into different ports. Using the illustration above, I pumped air into ports 8, 9 and 10, as well as fill holes. While some material, both small bits and bigger chunks did fall out, the quanity was limited - not much at all. Then I went to a sink and throughly rinsed it. OMG, there was a stream of bits, small and big, that kepts coming out. A lot!!!! I had to rinse it several times before water was clear. So indeed, there were a lot of deposits in there. Can't say that I was surprised.

Then I started it and it worked just fine. Except for the usual odd noise early on, it worked like new. As it happens I had to stop it after half hour, added bit more water later on and tried to start it again when the check light light went on yet again (just like before). This time I didn't use the compressor but simply rinsed dirty tank again. Sure enough few more bits were coming out, albeit much less this time. Back onto the Scooba it goes and this time the robot started fine and worked fine.

In summary, clearly over time some parts of the dirty tank has depostis buildup that start to interfere with the sensors. These can be disturbed/loosened using either compressed air or a flexibile brush. In this instance compressed air seems to have loosened enough deposits to be able to rinse them out. Multiple attempts may be needed to get most of dirt deposits out.

So once again my air compressor comes to the rescue. As for compressed air cans, considering how often I use my compressor too many cans would be used and produce too much waste compared to a compressor. Also, note that this compressor uses oil and tiny amount of oil ends up in the air stream. I don't think it will cause any problems as it is a tiny amount. If you don't have much space there are smaller units that don't use oil.

Thanks for all the info and tips I found here. Seems this worked for me.

bob_ninja · Joined: 17 Apr 2006 Posts: 174

Gordon wrote: jemartin wrote: ... Gordon: How do you think Fraggboy's brush can be most productively used? I am not at all familiar with the aquarium brush that Chris uses, but I think its main purpose is to function as a 'roto-rooter' through each of three conduits that carry air and airborne contents to the trap-door above the main DT chamber. Looking at this marked-up photo:

.......

8 and 9 are one loop and regularly get dirty. These probably need to be cleaned more often than others. Each port 10 is for clean/dirty tanks. Clearly dirty tank ends up with most dirt buildup. Not sure, but I think I released the most dirt when blowing air into dirty tank hole (from top) using all possible angles, then rinsing it. Still blowing air into port 10s is also useful, I guess.

bob_ninja · Joined: 17 Apr 2006 Posts: 174

jemartin wrote: ....

IMHO, iRobot has simply failed in designing a DT which can be successfully cleaned. The complex inner structure results in solid residue being deposited, which is not easily removed by simple rinsing. I find this most odd, since the front of the DT has a small transparent, retangular window glued to the DT body which could be an entry point permitting better cleaning using scrapers, brushes, etc. I may use a Dremel tool to create such an opening, which can be later sealed with gaskets and secured by stainless steel screws.

More damning, IMO, is iRobots failure to support their expensive product and to abandon their customers, many of whom wish to remain loyal robot owners, but are being defrauded. I doubt many middle class American buyers expect a $300-500 tool to fail after two years or to be unsupported and/or unrepairable. Nothing on the iRobot website suggests that this may be the user's experience. This is not full disclosure to the consumer.

Of course, other users may have different results. However, a vigorous burst of air directed at a now-useless machine just might be successful.

I look forward to other user's comments. Ciao. END

Let me start from the end. I tried your suggestion (compressed air) and it seems to have resolved my problem. In fact, it is true for most machines that a tiny/simple problem can cause entire machine to fail to function. I wouldn't call it a "now-useless machine" when a simple fix can be found. Just as I wouldn't call my car "now-useless machine" due to a flat tire that happens from time to time. Heck, at one point I was fixing tires on my lawn tractor every 3 weeks. So it is common for different machines to require some sort of simple maintenance and minor repairs every few months. The difference is that there are many repair shops for appliances and cars while these robots are new, so there are not many repair shops available.

I don't know of any company providing any sort of information on durability of heir products. Most will offer limited time warranties, but no guarantees. Or they may offer vague promises like, "battery can be recharged hundreds of times" - what does that mean???? Car companies don't tell you this car will last for at least 200K miles. And so on. I don't see why iRobot should make promises regarding durability. Within warranty period most of us had a very good service. Most get replacement parts and entire robots with minimal questions. After warranty expires no company will offer free repairs. Of course.

Again, for a new product class like these robots, it will take time to develop and network of repair shops. It is not easy and there is not much iRobot can do about that. Repair shops are created when there is demand because there are so many robots out there. They'll come.

Thus "unsupported and/or unrepairable" is too harsh. Of course they are supported and can be repaired. You may not have a repair shop available where you live, that is all. Heck I am in Canada, so ... not too many options besides DIY.

Back to the 1st paragraph, I agree 100%
The same issue exists even for 5xx sweepers as some dirt ends up in gears. Note how they fixed 5xx by sealing it better so much less dust ends up inside. They are learning, slowly.
So yes, it is a design error. Scoobas are in essence generation 1 still. Even newer 350/380 are only minor tweaks and still gen1. So it is not surprising for a gen1 machine to have defects. Consider other gen1 machines or software. Windows 1??? Useless. Model T Ford and first cars? OMG what a hassle. Many machines when they were first indtroduced, generation 1 has had a lot of problems. In fact, I would propose that Scooba gen1 and evem Roomba gen1 are remarkably defect free for a gen1 design.

When you look at this site and many new maintenance produces, repair procedures, and even mods like bearings, etc. for the most part they are rather simple. In this instance you just need an air compressor or a flexible brush. Not rocket science.

Indeed I am delighted to be able to deal with these issues using simple tools and common items instead of going to a dealer for a "special" wrench, or "special" fluids, etc. Need valve adjustment on CRV? Ops, that prodcedure looks scary. There goes few hundred bucks :( Indeed, we spend "$300-500" on our cars all the time!!!

So to me these machines are not expensive so long as you are willing to make bit of effort to prolong their service. Oddly I still use my original Roomba which was supposed to last only 1-2 years.

I guess my point is to take it easy and give them a break. It will take them several generations to perfect the technology. Say Roomba gen6 will have all battery, gears and other issue gone and should empty its container automatically, negotiate obstacles, etc. Then if gen6+ still has these annoying little issue present you can criticize them and I'll join you. Give them some time, that is all.

P.S.: To put things in perspective how many decades were required to perfect cars? How abouts operating systems like Windows? etc. I am going to give them at least 10 years from original Discovery. These things take time.

cfh · Joined: 01 Aug 2008 Posts: 1

[quote="jemartin"][size=12][/size]
I have obtained three brushes which work well on the Scooba:

Aquarium Guys
#214998 and 196860

Fisher Scientific
36 inch buret brush #03-615
[/quote]
What worked for me was two pipe cleaners (now called chenille stems) twisted together. Thanks for the tip.